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@ -48,9 +48,9 @@ We used to get magazines back then. They used to bundle OpenSuse or Debian, and
**CRAIG BOX: With an interest in both the physical and ethereal aspects of technology, you did a lot of robotics challenges during university. That's something that I am not surprised hear from someone who has a background in Logo, to be honest. There's Mindstorms, and a lot of other technology that is based around robotics that a lot of Logo people got into. How was that something that came about for you?**
NABARUN PAL: When I joined my university, apart from studying materials, one of the things they used to really encourage was to get involved in a lot of extracurricular activities. One which interested me was robotics. I joined my college robotics team and participated in a lot of challenges.
NABARUN PAL: When I joined my university, apart from studying materials, one of the things they used to really encourage was to get involved in a lot of extracurricular activities. One which interested me was robotics. I joined [my college robotics team](http://mars.iitr.ac.in/) and participated in a lot of challenges.
Predominantly, we used to participate in this competition called ABU Robocon, which is an event conducted by the Asia-Pacific Broadcasting Union. What they used to do was, every year, one of the participating countries in the contest would provide a problem statement. For example, one year, they asked us to build a badminton-playing robot. They asked us to build a rugby playing robot or a Frisbee thrower, and there are some interesting problem statements around the challenge: you can't do this. You can't do that. Weight has to be like this. Dimensions have to be like that.
Predominantly, we used to participate in this competition called [ABU Robocon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABU_Roboconhttp://mars.iitr.ac.in/), which is an event conducted by the Asia-Pacific Broadcasting Union. What they used to do was, every year, one of the participating countries in the contest would provide a problem statement. For example, one year, they asked us to build a badminton-playing robot. They asked us to build a rugby playing robot or a Frisbee thrower, and there are some interesting problem statements around the challenge: you can't do this. You can't do that. Weight has to be like this. Dimensions have to be like that.
I got involved in that, and most of my time at university, I used to spend there. Material science became kind of a backburner for me, and my hobby became my full time thing.
@ -78,23 +78,23 @@ Then we asked "what if we need to scale out to different machines?" Kubernetes w
NABARUN PAL: My involvement with the community began when I was at university. When I was working as an intern at Algoshelf, I was introduced to this-- I never knew about PyCon India, or tech conferences in general.
The person that I was working with just asked me, like hey, did you submit a talk to PyCon India? It's very useful, the library that we were making. So I submitted a talk to PyCon India in 2017. Eventually the talk got selected. That was not my first speaking opportunity, it was my second. I also spoke at PyData Delhi on a similar thing that I worked on in my internship.
The person that I was working with just asked me, like hey, did you submit a talk to PyCon India? It's very useful, the library that we were making. So I [submitted a talk](https://www.nabarun.in/talk/2017/pyconindia/#1) to PyCon India in 2017. Eventually the talk got selected. That was not my first speaking opportunity, it was my second. I also spoke at PyData Delhi on a similar thing that I worked on in my internship.
It has been a journey since then. I talked about the same thing at FOSSASIA Summit in Singapore, and got really involved with the Python community because it was what I used to work on back then.
After giving all those talks at conferences, I got also introduced to this amazing group called DGPLUG, which is an acronym for the Durgapur Linux Users Group. It is a group started in-- I don't remember the exact year, but it was around 12 to 13 years back, by someone called Kushal Das, with the ideology of training students into being better open source contributors.
After giving all those talks at conferences, I got also introduced to this amazing group called [DGPLUG](https://dgplug.org/), which is an acronym for the Durgapur Linux Users Group. It is a group started in-- I don't remember the exact year, but it was around 12 to 13 years back, by someone called Kushal Das, with the ideology of [training students into being better open source contributors](https://foss.training/).
I liked the idea and got involved with in teaching last year. It is not limited to students. Professionals can also join in. It's about making anyone better at upstream contributions, making things sustainable. I started training people on Vim, on how to use text editors. so they are more efficient and productive. In general life, text editors are a really good tool.
The other thing was the shell. How do you navigate around the Linux shell and command line? That has been a fun experience.
**CRAIG BOX: It's very interesting to think about that, because my own involvement with a Linux User Group was probably around the year 2000. And back then we were teaching people how to install things-- Linux on CD was kinda new at that point in time. There was a lot more of, what is this new thing and how do we get involved? When the internet took off around that time, all of that stuff moved online - you no longer needed to go meet a group of people in a room to talk about Linux. And I haven't really given much thought to the concept of a Linux Users Group since then, but it's great to see it having turned into something that's now about contributing, rather than just about how you get things going for yourself.**
**CRAIG BOX: It's very interesting to think about that, because my own involvement with a Linux User Group was probably around the year 2000. And back then we were teaching people how to install things-- Linux on CD was kinda new at that point in time. There was a lot more of, what is this new thing and how do we get involved? When the internet took off around that time, all of that stuff moved online - you no longer needed to go meet a group of people in a room to talk about Linux. And I haven't really given much thought to the concept of a LUG since then, but it's great to see it having turned into something that's now about contributing, rather than just about how you get things going for yourself.**
NABARUN PAL: Exactly. So as I mentioned earlier, my journey into Linux was installing SUSE from DVDs that came bundled with magazines. Back then it was a pain installing things because you did not get any instructions. There has certainly been a paradigm shift now. People are more open to reading instructions online, downloading ISOs, and then just installing them. So we really don't need to do that as part of LUGs.
We have shifted more towards enabling people to contribute to whichever project that they use. For example, if you're using Fedora, contribute to Fedora; make things better. It's just about giving back to the community in any way possible.
**CRAIG BOX: You're also involved in the Kubernetes Bangalore meetup group. Does that group have a similar mentality?**
**CRAIG BOX: You're also involved in the [Kubernetes Bangalore meetup group](https://www.meetup.com/Bangalore-Kubernetes-Meetup/). Does that group have a similar mentality?**
NABARUN PAL: The Kubernetes Bangalore meetup group is essentially focused towards spreading the knowledge of Kubernetes and the aligned products in the ecosystem, whatever there is in the Cloud Native Landscape, in various ways. For example, to evangelize about using them in your company or how people use them in existing ways.
@ -102,7 +102,7 @@ So a few months back in February, we did something like a Kubernetes contributor
I'm not much involved in the organization of the group. They are really great people already organizing it. I keep on being around and attending the meetups and trying to answer any questions if people have any.
**CRAIG BOX: One way that it is possible to contribute to the Kubernetes ecosystem is through the release process. You've written a blog which talks about your journey through that. It started in Kubernetes 1.17, where you took a shadow role for that release. Tell me about what it was like to first take that plunge.**
**CRAIG BOX: One way that it is possible to contribute to the Kubernetes ecosystem is through the release process. You've [written a blog](https://blog.naba.run/posts/release-enhancements-journey/) which talks about your journey through that. It started in Kubernetes 1.17, where you took a shadow role for that release. Tell me about what it was like to first take that plunge.**
NABARUN PAL: Taking the plunge was a big step, I would say. It should not have been that way. After getting into the team, I saw that it is really encouraged that you should just apply to the team - but then write truthfully about yourself. What do you want? Write your passionate goal, why you want to be in the team.
@ -114,11 +114,11 @@ NABARUN PAL: It was a bit tricky. I have this philosophy of contributing to proj
When I was contributing to that, I explored the release team and it interested me a lot, particularly how interesting and varied the mechanics of releasing Kubernetes are. For most software projects, it's usually whenever you decide that you have made meaningful progress in terms of features, you release it. But Kubernetes is not like that. We follow a regular release cadence. And all those aspects really interested me. I actually applied for the first time in Kubernetes 1.16, but got rejected.
But I still applied to Kubernetes 1.17, and I got into the enhancements team. That team was led by Mr. Bobby Tables, Bob Killen, back then, and Jeremy Rickard was one of my co-shadows in the team. I shadowed enhancements again. Then I lead enhancements in 1.19. I then shadowed the lead in 1.20 and eventually led the 1.21 team.
But I still applied to Kubernetes 1.17, and I got into the enhancements team. That team was led by [Mr. Bobby Tables, Bob Killen](https://kubernetespodcast.com/episode/126-research-steering-honking/), back then, and [Jeremy Rickard](https://kubernetespodcast.com/episode/131-kubernetes-1.20/) was one of my co-shadows in the team. I shadowed enhancements again. Then I lead enhancements in 1.19. I then shadowed the lead in 1.20 and eventually led the 1.21 team. That's what my journey has been.
That's what my journey has been. My suggestion to people is don't be afraid of failure. Even if you don't get selected, it's perfectly fine. You can still contribute to the release team. Just hop on the release calls, raise your hand, and introduce yourself.
My suggestion to people is don't be afraid of failure. Even if you don't get selected, it's perfectly fine. You can still contribute to the release team. Just hop on the release calls, raise your hand, and introduce yourself.
**CRAIG BOX: Between the 1.20 and 1.21 releases, you moved to work on the upstream contribution team at VMware. I've noticed that VMware is hiring a lot of great upstream contributors at the moment. Is this something that Stephen Augustus had his fingerprints all over? Is there something in the water?**
**CRAIG BOX: Between the 1.20 and 1.21 releases, you moved to work on the upstream contribution team at VMware. I've noticed that VMware is hiring a lot of great upstream contributors at the moment. Is this something that [Stephen Augustus](https://kubernetespodcast.com/episode/130-kubecon-na-2020/) had his fingerprints all over? Is there something in the water?**
NABARUN PAL: A lot of people have fingerprints on this process. Stephen certainly had his fingerprints on it, I would say. We are expanding the team of upstream contributors primarily because the product that we are working for is based on Kubernetes. It helps us a lot in driving processes upstream and helping out the community as a whole, because everyone then gets enabled and benefits from what we contribute to the community.
@ -134,7 +134,7 @@ NABARUN PAL: As we say in the community, see you in another Slack sometime.
NABARUN PAL: Thank you.
**CRAIG BOX: The announcement says the release consists of 51 enhancements, 13 graduating to stable, 16 moving to beta, 20 entering alpha, and then two features that have been deprecated. How would you summarize this release?**
**CRAIG BOX: [The announcement](https://kubernetes.io/blog/2021/04/08/kubernetes-1-21-release-announcement/) says the release consists of 51 enhancements, 13 graduating to stable, 16 moving to beta, 20 entering alpha, and then two features that have been deprecated. How would you summarize this release?**
NABARUN PAL: One of the big points for this release is that it is the largest release of all time.
@ -142,7 +142,7 @@ NABARUN PAL: One of the big points for this release is that it is the largest re
NABARUN PAL: Yep. 1.20 was the largest release back then, but 1.21 got more enhancements, primarily due to a lot of changes that we did to the process.
In the 1.21 release cycle, we did a few things differently compared to other release cycles-- for example, in the enhancement process. An enhancement, in the Kubernetes context, is basically a feature proposal. You will hear the terminology Kubernetes Enhancement Proposals, or KEP, a lot in the community. An enhancement is a broad thing encapsulated in a specific document.
In the 1.21 release cycle, we did a few things differently compared to other release cycles-- for example, in the enhancement process. An enhancement, in the Kubernetes context, is basically a feature proposal. You will hear the terminology [Kubernetes Enhancement Proposals](https://github.com/kubernetes/enhancements/blob/master/keps/README.md), or KEP, a lot in the community. An enhancement is a broad thing encapsulated in a specific document.
**CRAIG BOX: I like to think of it as a thing that's worth having a heading in the release notes.**
@ -156,7 +156,7 @@ What this did was promote a lot of async processes, and at the same time, give p
NABARUN PAL: It does, and a lot of Google Docs for meeting notes! We did a lot of process improvements, which essentially led to a better release. This release cycle we had 13 enhancements graduating to stable, 16 which moved to beta, and 20 enhancements which were net new features into the ecosystem, and came in as alpha.
Along with that are features set for deprecation. One of them was PodSecurityPolicy. That has been a point of discussion in the Kubernetes user base and we also published a blog post about it. All credit to SIG Security who have been on top of things as to find a replacement for PodSecurityPolicy even before this release cycle ended, so that they could at least have a proposal of what will happen next.
Along with that are features set for deprecation. One of them was PodSecurityPolicy. That has been a point of discussion in the Kubernetes user base and we also published [a blog post about it](https://kubernetes.io/blog/2021/04/06/podsecuritypolicy-deprecation-past-present-and-future/). All credit to SIG Security who have been on top of things as to find a replacement for PodSecurityPolicy even before this release cycle ended, so that they could at least have a proposal of what will happen next.
**CRAIG BOX: Let's talk about some old things and some new things. You mentioned PodSecurityPolicy there. That's a thing that's been around a long time and is being deprecated. Two things that have been around a long time and that are now being promoted to stable are CronJobs and PodDisruptionBudgets, both of which were introduced in Kubernetes 1.4, which came out in 2016. Why do you think it took so long for them both to go stable?**
@ -166,7 +166,7 @@ One of the things that I noticed when reading for the CronJobs graduation from b
**CRAIG BOX: A lot of these features that have been in beta for a long time, like you say, people have an expectation that they are complete. With PodSecurityPolicy, it's being deprecated, which is allowed because it's a feature that never made it out of beta. But how do you think people will react to it going away? And does that say something about the need for the process to make sure that features don't just languish in beta forever, which has been introduced recently?**
NABARUN PAL: That's true. One of the driving factors, when contributors are thinking of graduating beta features has been the "prevention of perma-beta" KEP. Back in 1.19 we introduced this process where each of the beta resources were marked for deprecation and removal in a certain time frame-- I think it's two releases for deprecation and another two releases for removal. That's also a motivating factor for eventually rethinking as to how beta resources work for us in the community. That is also very effective, I would say.
NABARUN PAL: That's true. One of the driving factors, when contributors are thinking of graduating beta features has been the ["prevention of perma-beta" KEP](https://github.com/kubernetes/enhancements/blob/master/keps/sig-architecture/1635-prevent-permabeta/README.md). Back in 1.19 we [introduced this process](https://kubernetes.io/blog/2020/08/21/moving-forward-from-beta/) where each of the beta resources were marked for deprecation and removal in a certain time frame-- three releases for deprecation and another release for removal. That's also a motivating factor for eventually rethinking as to how beta resources work for us in the community. That is also very effective, I would say.
**CRAIG BOX: Do remember that Gmail was in beta for eight years.**
@ -174,9 +174,9 @@ NABARUN PAL: I did not know that!
**CRAIG BOX: Nothing in Kubernetes is quite that old yet, but we'll get there. Of the 20 new enhancements, do you have a favorite or any that you'd like to call out?**
NABARUN PAL: There are two specific features in 1.21 that I'm really interested in, and are coming as net new features. One of them is the persistent volume health monitor, which gives the users the capability to actually see whether the backing volumes, which power persistent volumes in Kubernetes, are deleted or not. For example, the volumes may get deleted due to an inadvertent event, or they may get corrupted. That information is basically surfaced out as a field so that the user can leverage it in any way.
NABARUN PAL: There are two specific features in 1.21 that I'm really interested in, and are coming as net new features. One of them is the [persistent volume health monitor](https://github.com/kubernetes/enhancements/tree/master/keps/sig-storage/1432-volume-health-monitor), which gives the users the capability to actually see whether the backing volumes, which power persistent volumes in Kubernetes, are deleted or not. For example, the volumes may get deleted due to an inadvertent event, or they may get corrupted. That information is basically surfaced out as a field so that the user can leverage it in any way.
The other feature is the proposal for adding headers with the command name to kubectl requests. We have always set the user-agent information when doing those kind of requests, but the proposal is to add what command the user put in so that we can enable more telemetry, and cluster administrators can determine the usage patterns of how people are using the cluster. I'm really excited about these kind of features coming into play.
The other feature is the proposal for [adding headers with the command name to kubectl requests](https://github.com/kubernetes/enhancements/tree/master/keps/sig-cli/859-kubectl-headers). We have always set the user-agent information when doing those kind of requests, but the proposal is to add what command the user put in so that we can enable more telemetry, and cluster administrators can determine the usage patterns of how people are using the cluster. I'm really excited about these kind of features coming into play.
**CRAIG BOX: You're the first release lead from the Asia-Pacific region, or more accurately, outside of the US and Europe. Most meetings in the Kubernetes ecosystem are traditionally in the window of overlap between the US and Europe, in the morning in California and the evening here in the UK. What's it been like to work outside of the time zones that the community had previously been operating in?**
@ -194,7 +194,7 @@ The other solution is you have threaded discussions on some medium, be it Slack
**CRAIG BOX: Once you've put everything together that you hope to be in your release, you create a release candidate build. How do you motivate people to test those?**
NABARUN PAL: That's a very interesting question. It is difficult for us to motivate people into trying out these candidates. It's mostly people who are passionate about Kubernetes who try out the release candidates and see for themselves what the bugs are. I remember Dims tweeting out a call that if somebody tries out the release candidate and finds a good bug or caveat, they could get a callout in the KubeCon keynote. That's one of the incentives - if you want to be called out in a KubeCon keynote, please try our release candidates.
NABARUN PAL: That's a very interesting question. It is difficult for us to motivate people into trying out these candidates. It's mostly people who are passionate about Kubernetes who try out the release candidates and see for themselves what the bugs are. I remember [Dims tweeting out a call](https://twitter.com/dims/status/1377272238420934656) that if somebody tries out the release candidate and finds a good bug or caveat, they could get a callout in the KubeCon keynote. That's one of the incentives - if you want to be called out in a KubeCon keynote, please try our release candidates.
**CRAIG BOX: Or get a new pair of Kubernetes socks?**
@ -216,13 +216,13 @@ No matter how many names I mention, it will never be enough. A lot of people, ev
NABARUN PAL: It's a fair probability that Lewis will win the title this year as well.
**CRAIG BOX: Which would take him to eight all time career wins. And thus-- he's currently tied with Michael Schumacher-- would pull him ahead.**
**CRAIG BOX: Which would take him to eight all time career wins. And thus-- [he's currently tied with Michael Schumacher](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/15/sports/autoracing/lewis-hamilton-schumacher-formula-one-record.html)-- would pull him ahead.**
NABARUN PAL: Yes. Michael Schumacher was my first favorite F1 driver, I would say. It feels a bit heartbreaking to see someone break Michael's record.
**CRAIG BOX: How do you feel about Michael Schumacher's son joining the contest?**
**CRAIG BOX: How do you feel about [Michael Schumacher's son joining the contest?](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-mick-schumacher-to-race-for-haas-in-2021-as-famous-surname-returns.66XTVfSt80GrZe91lvWVwJ.html)**
NABARUN PAL: I feel good. Mick Schumacher is in the fray right now. And I wish we could see him, in a few years, in a Ferrari. The Schumacher family back to Ferrari would be really great to see. But then, my fan favorite has always been McLaren, partly because I like the chemistry of Lando and Carlos over the last two years. It was heartbreaking to see Carlos go to Ferrari. But then we have Lando and Daniel Ricciardo in the team. They're also fun people.
NABARUN PAL: I feel good. Mick Schumacher is in the fray right now. And I wish we could see him, in a few years, in a Ferrari. The Schumacher family back to Ferrari would be really great to see. But then, my fan favorite has always been McLaren, partly because I like the chemistry of Lando and Carlos over the last two years. It was heartbreaking to see Carlos go to Ferrari. But then we have Lando and Daniel Ricciardo in the team. They're also fun people.
---